Many thanks to Mr. Ivey for his answers to my questions about the Alamo church. In the last paragraph, he posed a question about the window over the door in the wall between the rectory/monks' burial chamber and the sacristy. I have only a guess and it involves the removal of smoke from lamps, etc. The early drawings of the church show a window just below the roof line in the west-facing wall of the rectory (which appears to have become a door for Grenet much later). Might it be that rising smoke would pass between rooms through that inside wall window and exit via that west side window along with smoke from the rectory itself? Both windows are over head high, and that is all that would be important if I had to work there (hack, hack, cough, cough).
Wendel Dickason
Cedar Hill, Tx.
J. Edmund Blake's 1845 drawing shows a rectangular window high on the west wall of the "rectory," wider than it is tall. This window was probably destroyed by the construction of the Grenet doorway through the wall here. I can't get clear why Grenet cut such a doorway; he didn't have any claim to the area south of the long east-west wall from the Long Barracks to the east side of the sacristy.
Jake Ivey, Archaeological Consultant to Alamo de Parras
Which now brings up another question (just more stuff to make one go, "Hmmm??): If Grenet or someone else did cut in a doorway into that west wall (presumably for access to the upstairs porch), was there a second floor installed in the monks' burial chamber (as in the nave during the Army warehouse days), or was there some other high up inside access to that door?
A couple more annoying questions about the '36 church: That north room...I can see in Eastman's sketch where that might well be that room. I had thought that I was looking at the west side of the Sacristy, and the door was leading into it. (That was the 'sacristy door/butress I referred to in my questionnaire). So, just how big (outside measurements) was that northern room? Everett's plats make it look almost even with the west wall of the monks' burial chamber, while Eastman's sketch seems to make it appear less than 10' long from east to west.
Wendel Dickason
Cedar Hill, Tx.
The doorway visible in the photographs [see George Nelson, The Alamo: An Illustrated History, pp. 88, 90] is different from the window in the earlier drawings, and looks like all the other Grenet doorways. This indicates that Grenet had the doorway cut through the wall by enlarging the old window opening (or possibly rebuilding the entire section of west wall in the monk's burial chamber north of the arch).
The presence of a doorway indicates a second floor in the monk's burial chamber, accessible by this door and by another through the north wall of the room at the second story level [see Nelson, The Alamo..., pp. 88 and 89].
How big was the room north of the monk's burial chamber? One of Francois Giraud's plans of the Alamo shows the east wall of the sacristy as 26 feet long, exterior (25 feet 1/8 inch on the HABS), the north wall of the sacristy and the north room together as 36.7 feet, and the west wall of the north room as 14.3 feet. The west wall in Eastman's drawing must be this west wall, because you can't see the two arched doorways into the monk's burial chamber -- if it was the west wall of the sacristy, the two openings would be visible right next to the wall joint. Besides, the room is shown still there through at least the 1849 Army plan. It's gone by 1873.
Jake Ivey, Archaeological Consultant to Alamo de Parras
Well I've just seen Alamo 13 Days to Glory. I'm sure that Baldwin is laughing when he's killed. What a film! Where were the Oscars? I mean...please how many films show two different Alamos for the price of one? It has superb casting excellent acting, so true to history, well tongue in cheek... over all I can say is I didn't video tape it thank God!
I've also just watched The Last Command. Well, its not the best
of the bunch but its not that bad. I just hope a film about the Alamo will
be better made this time around.Simon Haines
Manchester England
Simon,You might want to check out Frank Thompson's book, "Alamo Movies", first published in 1991 and still available. In it, he reviews and details every Alamo film imaginable and shows great style in his editorializing, neither overly praising nor completely damning any of them. He points out in each the historical elements that have a basis in reality and the "Hollywood stuff" that only the director could love. "Thirteen Days" actually did have quite a few 'correct things' about it, but oh, those errors...
I was an extra in it and even spoke with the director Burt Kennedy (who filmed a number of John Wayne's films) and got the impression that much of what he was doing was done as a 'tip of the hat' to the Duke. Due to budget restraints ($5 million), a lot of what needed to be done could not, including some of the action scenes. If you watch it again, see if you can spot the scenes from "The Last Command". Also, just for trivial purposes, look for the scene where Maj. Evans is fighting his way down the stairs. In it, his sword breaks off at the hilt, so he throws it down and grabs the stuntman by the lapels and throws him off! The actor had rehearsed that scene all afternoon and was supposed to run the soldier through, but when the prop broke, he glanced at it, muttered, "Sh**", then improvised. When he got to the bottom of the steps, the director yelled, "Cut...print that", and the cast and crew gave him a standing ovation! Of course, you can't make out his reaction in the finished version.
As for accuracy in films, check out "Alamo, the Price of Freedom"
in IMAX if you ever get the chance. It is a dramatic documentary, so lacks
some of the character development of the Hollywood versions, and has a
few errors that we history nuts can pick out, but overall must be rated
the best depiction of that story on film. (Uh, yeah...I was in that one
too). Say, do you suppose anyone will ever do a movie about the Texas Navy?
(We really had one)Wendel Dickason
Cedar Hill, Texas
Do we have an idea of the combat experience of the Alamo defenders?
I know some fought Indians, but I'm more interested who taught the cannoneers,
and if there where men in general who had sufficient experience to assist
an help those who where not as proficient in weapon skills, I know that
most had the use of a gun (before Alamo)but it didn't mean they where all
good shots/reloaders etceteras which would be needed at time of battle.Simon
haines
Manchester, England
Texians, until they adopted the flying squadron cavalry tactics of their Tejano compadres and Mexican adversaries, and Comanche adversaries in days of the Republic and after (Texas Rangers), were at a distinct disadvantage in the open, despite their marksmanship.
However, the questions of whether expert marksmanship was leveraged by organization into sustained firepower and how did Texians acquire such effective artillery expertise are good ones. This is particularly interesting in that it is unlikely that practice firing in Texas was extensive due to shortage of powder and ordinance.
I am not aware of the effectiveness of cannon fire in the Alamo defense, however, cannon fire on the plains of Coleto at Goliad and at the Battle of San Jacinto was obviously deadly and verified by enemy Centralista eyewitness reports as well as Texians. This means the presence of individuals with extensive theoretical knowledge regarding ordinance, elevation, wind, timing, charge loads, etc., if not actual practice firing elsewhere.
The most obvious source of this expertise was from the US Army, or as is in evidence in the Battle of Coleto, immigrants (Polish in this case) with experience from service in Europe. The question now becomes integrated with Ed Miller's treatise on the origin of the New Orleans Grey's uniform or the Grey's themselves and current War Room. Were US Army Regulars engaged in Texian battles and providing this expertise? I believe the answer is no. However, researchers have noted that a curiously large number of Texian veterans of similar name or spellings of names appear as deserters, absent without leave or resigned commissions on US Army rosters, not to mention those discharged with prior US service.
Even more curious are missing rosters, duty rolls, etc. of US Army units for the critical time periods in which some combatants in Texian battles were believed to have served and may have been listed. Also notable is the difficulty in determining actually who the "Regulars" were and who manned the Twin Sisters artillery at San Jacinto, although listings of "volunteers" were usually crystal clear on most rosters. I am not aware of a focused study of this issue on Alamo Defenders, but predict the same phenomena will be found.
Wallace L. McKeehan, Consulting Editor
Alamo de Parras
Nota Bene to Response on Alamo Forum on Military TrainingN.B.: In Appendix A, The Magnificient Barbarians by Bill & Marjorie Walraven, is listed 153 instances of the same or similar names of Texian veterans and the 3rd and 6th US Army Regiments. Among them are Alamo defenders:
William Fishbaugh, a member of the Gonzales Alamo Relief Force, was listed on US Army 3rd Regiment rosters as a member of Co. B, deserted November 23, 1834.
A William C. Johnson was discharged from Co. A, US 3rd Infantry Regiment on December 24, 1835. Johnson is a common name and it is unclear whether this could be the Alamo casualty named Johnson.
Edward Nelson was discharged from Co. I, US 3rd Regiment in January 1833.
The old smuggler and storyteller, Noah Smithwick, whose eyewitness accounts were few since he usually made himself scarce when the action in Texas got serious,says in his memoirs: There were said to have been a number of United States soldiers, from General Gaines' command, in the battle of San Jacinto. Deserters, they were called; but, after the battle, they all "deserted" back to the United States army, and no court martial ensued. General Gaines, it will be remembered, moved his command over to Nacogdoches, ostensibly to protect the families against the Indians.
Frank Tolbert says in The Day of San Jacinto: A number of regulars wore parts of the United States Army uniforms disguised with buckskin accessories. There were garrison troops from Louisiana who'd been allowed to "desert" for a short, fighting vacation with the Texas rebels."
Apparently many of these "vacationers" never "deserted" back preferring Texas over US Army life which offered citizenship in the new Republic and generous land bounties.
W.L.M.
Subject:Military Training
Date: 05/05/99
From: Robert E. Carrier
In addition to Wallace Mckeehans comments to Simon Haines I would like to add something. Most communities and States had volunteer militias and were required to participate in training. It usually involved drill, tactics and discipline. Some militias were mounted, some had artillery and infantry. A number of combatants in several American wars were militia units. There were even some units called up during World War II from Texas.
Only 16 States still have State Guard militias most of them are Southern States. In Texas only the Governor can call up a State Guard unit for active duty, whereas, the National Guard may be activated directly from the President or the Governor.
Alabama, Tennessee, Texas and California have the most active State Guard Units. Today their primary funtions are to help during disasters and take over the armories of any National Guard Units that have been activated and assigned outside their communities.
Robert E. Carrier, 1st Lt. Texas State Guard
San Antonio, TX
What is the significance of the Alamo?
Shawn Cardozo
California
The significance of the Alamo would most likely depend on whom you ask. It's many different things to many different people. It's an icon of defiance in the face of overwhelming odds. It's a stand of a freedom loving people battling against a tyrant intent on taking their rights and freedoms.
Even though we know that Travis and his band of men had no intention of dying inside that rundown mission, when it came time to give the ultimate sacrifice they did their best and beyond, inflicting great losses on some of the best of the Mexican army. The defeat at the Alamo and the later losses at Goliad if nothing else gave the impetus and desire that came to a head at San Jacinto inspiring the Texian forces resulting in Santa Anna's defeat.
John Bryant
