Subject: Flying Company
Date: 06/08/97
From: Eric Jamborsky Nashville, TN
First, I must say congratulations on this splendid page. I believe it will provide an excellent resource for researchers. It is interesting reading the various comments...nothing stimulates the mind like a good academic dispute. I would like to make this comment on the Mexican soldier of 1836. These men face Hell on earth storming the mission...no nice round grape shot greeted them, just broken chunks of horseshoes, nails, and who-knows-what-else crammed down a cannon barrel. Brave soldiers they were and I believe it is time they were honored with a memorial...they earned it. (Hey, we even allow memorials to Yankees here in Tennessee.) A brave foe, the Mexican soldier paid for his place in history. Remember them with honor.
Eric Jamborsky
Funny, the first memorial ever proposed for the Alamo battlefield was by Lt. Colonel José Sánchez-Navarro for the Mexican soldados. General Cos turned down the request. When I brought it up during the Alamo Plaza Study Committee meetings, I was informed by local Hispanics that they were only interested in honoring those who died on the inside (Tejanos) not on the outside.
El Soldado Mexicano deserves more. Now, the trend is to say that every Mexican Army account of the battle is a fake. I wonder how the Sons of Confederate Veterans would re-act if a simular views was embraced for their side of the Civil War.
Kevin R. Young
Next Response: 06/10/97 Surrender? Moi?
Subject: Re: New Orleans Grey Flag.
Date: 06/09/97
From: David Folds
I am one who would at least like to see it returned to Texas if only for a travelling tour, available for viewing. Texans may feel it should be returned because it's theirs...I, on the other hand, would just like the opportunity to see it for myself. To be able to look at or hold or possess something from that battle, from those people, from that time, somehow strengthens my connection to that event. So, to offer you a different perspective, I would like to see the New Orleans Grey flag revisit its historical birthplace for a time. Had it not been at the Alamo, very few, if any, would've even known that it existed. It isn't any more important than any other flag of that battle, either belonging to the defenders of the Alamo or of the Mexican army reclaiming the Alamo, but it is a connecting point to that 13 days of history.
David Folds
PREVIOUS COMMENTS:04/10/97 New Orleans Greys
David,
I appreciate your thoughts on the New Orleans Greys Flag.
First, I would have to ask just how much of the original flag is represented in the "restoration" in the custody of the Mexican government. It may be that only a few pieces of the original cloth survived. I have seen silk flags literally fall to pieces and the restoration simply become a replication. You should have seen the San Jacinto flag before the fixed it up.
Also, international matters are a complicated issue. Look at the recent problem with the Russians over the Imperial Jewels exhibit. With Mexico, they can be even worse. To say that Mexico is still very sensitive about all of this is an understatement.
We probably can close in 1986 to getting the flag back on loan. But a bunch of idiots got in the press with talk about select strike forces to go to Mexico and liberate the flag. Mexico was not amused, and at present, I am sure they feel that once the flag gets across the Rio Grande, it may not come home again.
By the way, the New Orleans Greys Flag is not the only Texian or American color still held by Mexico as a war trophy. The Galveston Invincibles Flag from Lipantítlan and the Texian flag from Mier are there as well as some US flags from the 1846-48 war.
Of course, we still have a lot of their flags, including four captured at San Jacinto. And talk about relics of the Alamo-the Permanente Matamoros and Activo Toluca colors held by the State of Texas were at the Alamo battle as well!
I was lucky-I've been to Mexico and seen the NOG flag-I would like to see it returned to Texas on loan or tour, but am not prepared to make a major issue out of it. There are other relics of the battle-the documents-that I would like to see preserved first and have opened to the researcher.
Kevin R. Young
Subject: Surrender??? Moi???
Date: 06/10/97
From: Eric Jamborsky Nashville, TN
Well, Goliad is an interesting matter...but it was commanded by the only "West Pointer" (albeit a drop-out) in the Texas Army....As for Donelson...two of the commanders were from Kentucky & Virginia, the less said about those guys the better....hey, I'm not being that serious here. But I truly believe that the Crockett as prisoner stories all seem to go back to Cos. Here is a man who definitely believed he needed to paint himself in as good a light as possible. After all, he had broken his parole not to take up arms against Texas again after his surrender in December, 1835. Also, he was Santa Anna's brother-in-law, a relationship guaranteed to make him a prime target of the Texians' wrath. I've always felt sorry for Cos. Despite his portrayal in movies and such, Cos appears to have tried to do his job as a soldier. This is a definite disadvantage to having a famous relative. As for a "Mexican conspiracy" I have no idea who Bill Groneman is. And, as for veracity of Mexican reports, there are enough conflicting reports to create an impenatrable fog around the events...the usual problem with eye witnesses. All rarely agree on the same thing.
Eric Jamborsky
PREVIOUS COMMENTS: 06/08/97 Flying Company
NEXT COMMENT: 06/13/97 A Response
Subject: What Just Passed Me By; History or a Cinematographer?
Date: 06/13/97
From: Michael Trzecinski
A few weeks ago, I was stuck at home with a bum leg. I was limited to couch duty because of my inability to deal with pain. The only recourse I had was the remote for the TV and the phone.
During these days, I got used to channel surfing again. On Saturday, a particular channel had the John Wayne "Alamo" movie on. Since I haven't watched it in about ten years, I decided to watch it again. I got through about ten minutes before I started a major rant that now in hind sight, I have to thank my lucky stars that I was in my basement.
I think the only facts in this movie were that the Mexican Army fought the Texans, and that the battle was in the Alamo in San Antonio, Texas. Probably you could add some of the combatants along with the time of the year.
Within a five minute period, I witnessed a major encounter that killed twenty-eight Texan defenders before a messenger arriving in the Alamo announcing that Fannin and his troops were massacred on their way to the Alamo! I was beginning to believe the stories told about John Wayne and drugs. I had to turn the movie off and go back to the wrestling that was on the other channel. At least I could believe what I was seeing and I know that this was fiction. Besides, I like Rick Flair.
This got me thinking of all the movies that I've seen regarding the Alamo. I mean everything from Glenn Ford being the Man From the Alamo to the IMAX classic that is shown in San Antonio. Obviously everyone remembers Walt Disney's version with Fess Parker. Unfortunately, whoever did the sets must have been around in the early 1900 when most stories of the Alamo assumed that the chapel and the barrack was the entire scene of the battle. No wonder everyone thinks Davy died in a heap of soldiers! I wonder if Russell did ever give his furs to Davy? How about Sterling Hayden in the Lost Command? Another epic. Actually it wasn't as bad as Walt's version of Fantasyland in San Antonio.
The best one was the TV movie with Brian Keith and James Arness. Wasn't it great seeing "Major Winchester" get a promotion from MASH! The romantic twist with the Mexican girl and the rose on the chest of her fallen hero was too much. Gee, I thought I was watching Melrose Place or Dallas.
Now before Kevin gets too upset with me, I want to say that the IMAX film is by far the best that has been made to date. Some of the scenes did take "artistic liberties" but by far it was the most factual.
Seriously, at times, it is criminal the way historical events are portrayed on film. I realize that Hollywood makes movies to make money, but come on. Do people really believe that Olivia De Haviland really predicted Errol Flynn's demise at the Little Bighorn? You now understand why people and society get a warped version of history or their own heritage.
Maybe there should be a law stating that historic films must go through a scholastic critic before being released so that people are not getting a warped view of their own history. It should also be a rule that historical depicted films must have some educational value, otherwise the studio would pay a fee to help defray the nation's educational debt. The result of these changes would be that no historical films would be made. We could be subjected to endless Jason and Rocky sequels. The simple fact is that true history doesn't sell tickets and make money for the studios. Too bad! If this is the case, then don't make them at all. Don't subject people who do value history to the group that values Sitcoms as their popcorn aphrodisiac. At least the choice between the History Channel and Discovery is better than the Cartoon Network and Court TV.
What I really would like is a factual, realistic, historical movie made of the siege and assault on the Alamo without the Hollywood interpretation of what occurred those days.
I know that I'm opening a can of worms with the last sentence, but just maybe, we could sell a hundred or so video cassettes! It worked for Ted Turner and Gettysburg and that was a work of fiction!
Michael Trzecinski
Don't be too shocked if I agree with you. Alamo movies are pretty indicative of how Hollywood treats history. Even some of the "better"historical films-Zulu, Braveheart, Masada and the Sharp series leave a lot to be desired in the historical accuracy department. From an insider, let me share some insights to the movie business. First of all, everyone on the set has a vision of what the film is really about-from the screenplay writer to the assistant director. And every department wants to shine-the costume department is generally only interested in how the principals look-and will sacrifice the authenticity of the background doing so. Theart department likes to be creative-not authentic: the props department often just gets by.Then you have the actors who have their vision of things, followed by their personal quirks. How many 19th Century films have you seen the leads walking around with their collars undone, their coats unbuttoned, their hats off their heads most of the time, wearing saber belts like hip hugging gun belts? I have seen perfectly great authentic costumes not used because the actor thinks he would look funny in it. I once sat around on a film set for four hours because an actor, whose historical character had a beard, wouldn't wear one because his fans would not recognize him!
Most directors and screenplay writers have a god complex-they can change anything they want to and often do. A technical advisor has three options-leave, do what they want or compromise, getting some good history into the film while having to live with some of the bad. I have had experiences on films that would drive you crazy. Hollywood, as a rule, doesn't interpret history-it makes up its own version.
I grew up loving those great historical epics--The Alamo, Khartoum, 55 Days at Peking, The Longest Day, Zulu, Cromwell. Tarus Bulba. As a historian, I am completely aware of all the faults. You know they could have done better if they had only wanted to--but Hollywood is a "make it work" place--and that is what many of them did. The irony is that the most authentic World War Two film for props and uniforms is a made up 70's comedy-Kelly's Heroes.
By the way-Killer Angels was an exceptionally accurate historical novel. To transport it to the screen without killing that flavor was a rare moment, especially if you have seen some of the rest of Turner's historical films. Gettysburg may be a real rare moment indeed.
By the way, I like John Wayne's The Alamo. Its a terrible history lesson, except for its sets. One of the running jokes in re-enacting is to do the: Laurence Harvey scene with the "Here's Santa Anna" line. If you follow the bad directions in the scene, you will notice that he plants his sword east of the Sabine River. When we do our parody-we all yellout "Shreveport" instead of the Alamo. I could go on. But the Wayne film does have a spirit to it, especially the unedited version). We all want the accurate Alamo movie, but I have to ask, whose version of accurate. The Alamo Conservatives would scream if Davy did not go down swinging or if thousands of soldados weren't piled up like cord word in front of thewalls.
By the way-you know we never do see Fess actually die in the end of theDisney film. It just fades out. I wonder what really happens after the fade out?
I am glad you like Price of Freedom. I have some problems with it-and I was the technical advisor! Some day, I will have to tell you all the behind the scenes stuff. It explains a lot.
My favorite Alamo film-a toss up-it is between the Wagon Train episode,"The Juan Morales Story" and Viva Max.
Kevin R. Young
Subject: Surrender???Moi??? A response
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 20:17:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rosemerta@aol.com
I am happy for once to meet someone who isn't taking Crockett's death that serious. Concerning Fort Donelson-anything with Gideon "What Side of the Works Do You put the defense trench on" Pillow involved in it had to be doomed. Those poor volunteers who made the attack at Cerro Gordo will agree.
Fannin, by the way, was not the only "West Pointer" in Texas. Hugh McLeod actually graduated from the USMA, and Fannin's adjutant, Joséph Chadwick also had attended West Point. One of Fannin's officers was a former US Marine, four of his artillery officers were exiled Polish Officers and one of the gunners served on the HMS Victory at Trafalgar.
I should point out that Fannin only attened the first two years at the USMA. Basicly, all you learn in those years are French and Math. You didn't make it into Mahan's classroom until the third and fourth year. So West Point did not have time to teach Fannin anything about military life.
Of course, Fannin had the distinct problem of being up against the finest Mexican light cavalry commander in active service: José Urrea.
The paper trail does not suggest Cos for the source on the Crockett execution- the Doleson Letter, which is the real source, makes it sound like Almonte. There is a big debate on all of this. Yes, there is a lot of conflicting reports-and the Anglo end of this thing has just as many conflicting stories. I treat the Mexican and Anglo accounts with the same degree of interpretive watch points. There has been a recent move to discredit all Mexican accounts. Bill Groneman is a new york writer and Alamo buff who championed the attack on the de la Pena diary as being fake, and that several Mexican historians helped fake it.
Subject: Legendary Heros of the Alamo
Date: 06/17/97
From: Chuck Chappell.
Just thought I'd drop you a line and thank you for adding the links to José Toribio Losoya, Domingo Losoya, Enrique Esparza and related articles in the spirit of my original post.
Fascinating reading. Esparza's and Ruiz's accounts bring an immediacy to the siege of the Alamo I had not known before. Enough to send shivers down the spine! And thank you for acquainting me with such obviously honorable men as José Toribio Losoya and Domingo Losoya. May their names as well as Esparza's father's be forever etched in their rightful place in Texas history!
God Speed in your continued search for the historical record.
Chuck Chappell.
Subject: This is great!
Date: 06/17/97
From: Glenn Deering
Guys,
You have a great website! Extremely interesting and a great resource for a teacher like me. I am just completing my credential and will be moving (back) to Houston in the fall and hope to be teaching as soon as possible. I am currently working on a unit that compares the Spanish missions of California with those in Texas and Florida, with an emphasis on the Texas missions and the Alamo.
This is great stuff - I can spend hours here. I will tell all my colleagues and friends!
Thanks,
Glenn Deering
Subject: Places called Alamo
Date: 06/23/97
From: Allison Breen
One of my art professors is interested in doing a project on all the business, schools, and other buildings that use the Alamo in their name and have made some other tie in with the Alamo such as their logo or their architectural style. Would anyone there have any idea of how long a list that might be. The yellow page web sites on WWW run to pages and pages in the major cities of Texas alone. Thanks for any help.
Sincerely,
Allison Breen, Reference Librarian
Moffett Library - Midwestern State University
Wichita Falls Texas
fbreena@nexus.mwsu.edu
